Some state lawmakers drive Uber to afford the job. The best of them are walking away.
Layla Zaidane runs the largest nonpartisan organization for young lawmakers in the country, and her team's "Exit Interview" found that the most promising bipartisan legislators are leaving office over problems that are entirely fixable. This conversation launches Terms of Service, a new collaboration between Future Caucus and TP&R that takes you inside what it actually costs to serve.
Key Takeaways
The math doesn't work. The average state lawmaker earns about $20,000 less than the average American worker. That pushes good people toward second jobs or out of office entirely.
The best ones are quitting. The legislators most willing to work across the aisle are resigning at high rates, and the reasons are solvable: pay, staff, scheduling, safety.
State houses are less broken than you think. Smaller chambers and retail-scale politics let lawmakers build the trust that gridlocked institutions can't.
Violence brought out the worst and the best. As threats against officials rose, some of the most powerful responses came from bipartisan pairs refusing to let it become normal.
About Our Guest
Layla Zaidane is president and CEO of Future Caucus, the largest nonpartisan organization for young lawmakers in the United States, working with Gen Z and millennial legislators across 36 states to govern across party lines.
Links and Resources
Future Caucus: futurecaucus.org | @futurecaucus
Layla Zaidane: @lzaidane
TP&R is proud to be part of The Democracy Group podcast network.
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The Terms of Service series is a partnership between Scan Media and Future Caucus. Executive Producers: Future Caucus and Layla Zaidane. Learn more about Future Caucus at www.futurecaucus.org.

Through the lens of the Tennessee Williams play, The Glass Menagerie, a morning walk through Washington, from DuPont Circle to the Jefferson Memorial, becomes a reckoning with what we've made of our civic sacred spaces. A solo reflection on desecration, devotion, and a faith in the American experiment that proves harder to walk away from than intended.
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Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other is part of The Democracy Group, a network of podcasts examining what's broken in our democracy and how we can fix it together.
Beautiful, impossible, and ours anyway.

“It’s easy to hate things you don’t understand.”
Two minutes. Real impact. Leave a review:  lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
Kristin Wilson spent three decades producing Washington coverage, including a decade running CNN’s Capitol Hill unit, with stops at NBC, CBS, Nightline, the BBC, and Fox News. Now she’s co-founder and executive producer of 535, a journalist-founded, nonpartisan newsroom built to cover the policy of Congress. The conversation gets into what gets lost when the cameras chase conflict, why bipartisan work still happens when no one is looking, and how seeing legislators as people makes them harder to write off.
Calls to Action
✅ If this episode resonates, consider sharing it with someone who might need a reminder that disagreement doesn’t have to mean dehumanization.
✅ Check out our Substack: coreysnathan.substack.com
✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen: lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform.
✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion
Key Takeaways
Policy is the story. 535 covers the appropriations fights, committee work, and behind-the-scenes deals that move real money and shape real lives.
It’s harder to dislike people up close. Watch members talk about what they care about, and the cartoon version gets harder to hold onto.
The aisle still gets crossed. From steak invitations to co-sponsored bills, members find ways to work together when they decide to.
Ask, then listen. Kristin’s whole craft comes down to asking a real question and actually hearing the answer.
About Our Guest
Kristin Wilson is co-founder and executive producer of 535, a new kind of newsroom for the policy of Congress. Over nearly 30 years she led CNN’s Hill coverage and produced for NBC, CBS, Nightline, the BBC, and Fox News.
Links and Resources
535 - 535.news
Kristin Wilson - @kristin-wilson
Grateful to our friends at The Democracy Group - www.democracygroup.org
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Clarity, charity, and conviction can live in the same room. Yes, really.

This was one of our most listened-to conversations of the past year. If you missed it the first time, here's your second chance.
She moderated the fly debate. She interviewed Stephen Hawking. She covered 12 presidential campaigns and sat down with the last 10 presidents. And she spent years inside Queen Elizabeth’s extraordinary vantage point on American democracy — one that no American journalist could ever fully replicate.
Two minutes. Real impact. Leave a review: lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
Susan Page, Washington Bureau Chief of USA TODAY, joins Corey to discuss her latest book, The Queen and Her Presidents: a sweeping account of Queen Elizabeth II’s relationships with every American president from Truman to Biden. But this conversation goes well beyond the book. Susan reflects on a career that began in a converted car dealership on Long Island, the lessons she learned covering her first president (and how badly she blew it), what it really takes to develop sources across decades of political reporting, and why — from a Kansas girl’s perspective — the people on both sides of our divide love America more than we give them credit for.
Calls to Action
✅ If this conversation resonates, consider sharing it with someone who believes connection across difference still matters.
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✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen:  lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
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✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion
Key Takeaways
Preparation is a framework, not a script. Susan goes into every major interview with a plan — what she wants to get, how to get it, what to do if the answer goes sideways. But the goal is to inform the conversation, not control it. The worst thing an interviewer can do, she says, is fail to listen to the answer.
Great sourcing is built on respect and fairness, not on pulling punches. Rich Bond, the young Long Island operative she profiled in 1979, became a top Republican official and a reliable source for decades — not because she went easy on him, but because he trusted her to be fair. She would not have softened a story about him, and he knew it.
Books and daily journalism use the same muscle, differently. The skills transfer directly — the sourcing, the curiosity, the nose for a good detail — but the bar is higher and the time horizon is longer. Writing a book means people are paying thirty dollars and spending real time. You owe them something they couldn’t get from clicking a link.
The best research rewards patience. Sifting through archival files at eight presidential libraries and the National Archives in Britain yielded moments that almost nobody else has read. The sarcastic cables British ambassadors sent back about LBJ as vice president confirmed everything LBJ already suspected they thought of him.
They love America. Whether she’s at a No Kings rally or a MAGA rally, Susan hears the same thing: people who care deeply, who revere the Constitution, who think they’re fighting for the country. The polarization isn’t about love of country — it’s about a failure to extend basic respect across the divide.
Queen Elizabeth perfected the art of getting people to talk. Her small talk strategy — chatter briefly, then turn the question back — was especially effective with men, who, as Susan notes diplomatically, tend to enjoy talking about themselves. Susan has consciously adopted the technique and credits it with making her better at navigating rooms full of strangers.
About Our Guest
Susan Page is the Washington Bureau Chief of USA TODAY and one of the most respected political journalists in America. She has covered 12 presidential campaigns and interviewed the last 10 presidents. She moderated the 2020 vice presidential debate between Kamala Harris and Mike Pence — yes, the one with the fly — and is the bestselling author of biographies of Barbara Bush, Nancy Pelosi, and Barbara Walters. Her latest book, The Queen and Her Presidents, chronicles Queen Elizabeth II’s relationships with every American president from Truman through Biden.
Links and Resources
The Queen and Her Presidents by Susan Page — susanpagedc.com
Grateful to our friends at The Democracy Group: www.democracygroup.org
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“Clarity, charity, and conviction can live in the same room.” Yes, really.

What if the way we talk about "the other side" isn't just rude — it's something closer to dehumanization? Consumer and social psychologist Lura Forcum has a precise vocabulary for what's happening, and a clear-eyed prescription for what to do about it.
Two minutes. Real impact. Leave a review: lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
Lura writes the newsletter How to Human and co-hosts We Made This Political with political scientist Lauren Hall. Her work sits at the intersection of human behavior, civic life, and the social cognition we're outsourcing to screens, algorithms, and AI.
Calls to Action
✅ If this episode resonates, consider sharing it with someone who might need a reminder that disagreement doesn’t have to mean dehumanization.
✅ Check out our Substack: coreysnathan.substack.com
✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen:  lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform.
✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion
Key Takeaways
Infrahumanization is the dehumanization we don't notice. Calling people vermin is rare and widely rejected. But treating the other side as interchangeable, simple, or incapable of real suffering? That's everywhere — and it's the mental move that makes cruelty psychologically possible.
Politics is relational, and we've been pretending it isn't. Civic life is built from relationships that require reciprocity. We've convinced ourselves the normal rules don't apply when the subject is politics. They do. Broken relationships have to be repaired.
We evolved for face-to-face. We didn't evolve for this. Online, you never have to reckon with being wrong about someone. In person, you're stuck with them — and that's the point.
About Our Guest
Lura Forcum is a consumer and social psychologist, strategic advisor, and former professor. She writes How to Human on Substack and co-hosts We Made This Political with Lauren Hall.
Links and Resources
How to Human: luraforcum.substack.com
We Made This Political: wemadethispolitical.substack.com
Lura on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/luraforcum
Grateful to our friends at The Democracy Group: www.democracygroup.org
You evolved to do this. You've just been out of practice.

When the theological scrutiny is ferocious for the Democrat and nonexistent for the Republican, you're not watching theology. You're watching idolatry.
Two minutes. Real impact. Leave a review:   lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
Ken Paxton won the Republican primary for the Texas U.S. Senate seat. He was impeached 121-23 by a Republican-controlled House, divorced on biblical grounds, and caught on video pocketing a thousand-dollar pen. James Talarico, the Democratic nominee, attends Princeton Seminary and talks openly about his faith. Prominent evangelical voices have published multiple pieces questioning Talarico's Christian credibility. You won't find comparable scrutiny of Paxton. This episode is about what that asymmetry actually reveals, and why refusing to traffic in fear and anger is the harder road.
Calls to Action
✅ If this episode resonates, consider sharing it with someone who might need a reminder that disagreement doesn’t have to mean dehumanization.
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✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen:  lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
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✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion
Key Takeaways
The scrutiny follows the letter, not the life. The asymmetry between evangelical treatment of Talarico and Paxton isn't theological. It's tribal.
Love is obedience, not an optional add-on. Kindness and humility aren't the soft edges of the faith. They're the point.
The Pew data draws the line clearly. Most Americans are open to religion's influence in their lives. Nearly eight in ten say churches shouldn't endorse candidates. People know the difference between faith and partisanship.
Links and Resources
Pew Research: pewresearch.org
Grateful to our friends at The Democracy Group: www.democracygroup.org
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Horse hockey has a theological address, and this episode found it.

She's a Republican who won't back Trump, and she has no interest in yelling — just winning.
Two minutes. Real impact. Leave a review:  lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
Susan Del Percio is a crisis communications expert, political analyst, and MS NOW columnist who has publicly opposed Trump since 2015. Corey and Susan dig into the Texas Senate race, how vulnerable Republicans navigate a MAGA world, what polls actually tell you, and why listening might be the most radical political act left.
Calls to Action
✅ If this episode resonates, consider sharing it with someone who might need a reminder that disagreement doesn’t have to mean dehumanization.
✅ Check out our Substack: coreysnathan.substack.com
✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen:  lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform.
✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion
Key Takeaways
Threading the needle in 2026. Vulnerable Republicans need MAGA voters to turn out and independents to cross over. The playbook: show up with Trump once, deliver locally, and pick your fights carefully.
Don't take the bait. Susan's advice for James Talarico: ignore the culture-war attacks and make every answer about the economy. Gas prices, cost of goods, cost of doing business. Nothing else.
What polls actually tell you. They're snapshots, not predictions. Susan ignores the horse race and looks for trends and cross-tabs — specifically, who's gettable.
Respecting the office. Susan called Trump a piece of garbage on air and has never forgiven herself. Not because she supports him — because the office demands a baseline the person in it doesn't.
Just listen. Stop preparing your rebuttal long enough to hear what someone is actually saying. Then ask why. It costs nothing.
About Our Guest
Susan Del Percio is a crisis communications expert and political analyst for MS NOW. A lifelong Republican, she has publicly opposed Donald Trump since 2015 and previously served in both the Giuliani and Cuomo administrations.
Links and Resources
Follow Susan: x.com/DelPercioS
Latest on MS NOW: www.ms.now/opinion/trump-republicans-irs-settlement-lawfare-polling-distraction-budget
Grateful to our friends at The Democracy Group: www.democracygroup.org
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Clarity, charity, and conviction can live in the same room. Yes, really.

In 2024, just 18% of Americans said religion is gaining influence. Then came the double-digit jump. Pew Research's Chip Rotolo has the numbers — and they're striking.
Two minutes. Real impact. Leave a review: lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
Chip Rotolo is a research associate at Pew Research Center studying religion's role in public life. His team's latest report finds a sharp reversal in how Americans view religion's influence — and raises harder questions about Christian nationalism, what "Christian values" actually means to different people, and why the data looks so different depending on which party you ask.
Calls to Action
✅ If this episode resonates, consider sharing it with someone who might need a reminder that disagreement doesn’t have to mean dehumanization.
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✅ Leave a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen: lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
✅ Subscribe to Talkin' Politics & Religion Without Killin' Each Other on your favorite podcast platform.
✅ Watch the full conversation and subscribe on YouTube: youtube.com/@politicsandreligion
Key Takeaways
A genuine vibe shift. After hitting an all-time low in 2024, the share of Americans who say religion is gaining influence has jumped sharply — now matching levels last seen in 2002.
Christian nationalism is contested territory. Pew doesn't label anyone a Christian nationalist, but the questions associated with those views consistently land around 15% of Americans — while a much larger share wants Christian values to play some role in public life.
Party drives everything. On nearly every question in this survey, the most striking splits are by political affiliation, not religion.
How you ask matters as much as what you ask. Question wording, sequence, and consistency over time are what make trend data trustworthy — and Chip pulls back the curtain on how Pew gets that right.
About Chip Rotolo
Chip Rotolo is a research associate at Pew Research Center, where he studies religion's role in public life, religious engagement over time, and the intersection of religion and politics. He holds a PhD in sociology from Notre Dame, an MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary, and a BA from UNC Chapel Hill.
Links and Resources
Pew Research Center: pewresearch.org
Chip on Instagram: @chip.rotolo
Leave a review: lovethepodcast.com/politicsandreligion
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The data has opinions. So does God. Turns out, so do we.